Hey, Amy, about
your white-only post. This’ll be kind of garbled, but of all the waves of thought swooshing round in my head on different subjects/issues/goings on that I’d like to write about at the mo’, this is the one I’m choosing, even though it’ll likely take some thought on the part of anyone reading to make any sense of it.
One note before I really start. I couldn’t tell from your post where the deeply personal and clearly political stopped and started and maybe there were no such clear deliniation(s) going on in you at the time, so if you’re uncomfortable with addressing what I’ve written some time soon, or at all, I wont be offended and would also be happy to take it down if you’d rather it weren’t hanging out here in the wind. Also, as with much conscious growth and development, the stretching parts can hurt at times, and maybe what you wrote came out of that sort of place in the distillation process, and that is a difficult, if not impossible, place from which to feel anything like trust when you’re in it, in case that point was something you needed to hear, and is relevant at all.
Onward.
I don’t trust myself anymore.
I get that feeling too, like, hey, where’s the solid ground again? Sometimes it’s ’cause I find myself kind of lost for argument to a particular point, which I’ve learned is often an indicator that the conversation or my thought process has/have somehow defaulted to the white perspective, or that the person I’m speaking with is short a building block/aka a clue or two in their understanding and I’m not sure what it is that’s missing from their understanding/knowledge base. Or it can be more general, which is what I think I read in your words, perhaps prompted by unproductive and/or negative experiences bringing on a malaise, sense of frustration that might well be a plateau rather than anything more fixed.
Sometimes, too, it’s down to the (deliberately if not consciously) confounding nature of the patriarchal perspectives of the white people I’m listening to, reading or conversing with (including myself in my own head sometimes), which is also often an indication that the white perspective is once again dominating, is overarching and thorough-reaching.
Did I just more or less say the same thing twice? ie. it’s not you, it’s the confounded, confounding lense, again. Perhaps the lack of trust in ourselves is about being at or near a point where we’re wavering between what we knew, or thought we knew and what we now know or are learning, where the latter has yet to fully settle inside of us; we’re on what seems shifting ground. And white dominance does have its ways of sucking you/me/us back in to the mind meld, lots of ways.
I could be on the wrong track, but I’m wondering if, when it comes to this,
I get caught up in the whitely liberal desire to do the right thing and prove myself a good (i.e., nonracist) person and I’m learning that’s a very bad place from which to act.
that’s really what’s going on in you, or is it that other white people have suggested to you, directly or indirectly that that could be your only possible motivation? There’s no acknowledgment that you could possibly care deeply and sincerely about racism, particularly as it effects women of colour. That all you could possibly be trying to do is make yourself feel better by one-upping and/or more liberal than thou-ing, which is the only reason anyone within the hierarchical capatriarchy (hat-tip polly for that term) could possibly have for doing anything, ever, right? - at least that’s what most of us are trained to believe and it’s especially ingrained in so many who particularly directly benefit, albeit unconsciously sometimes, from the system, (and because one must traditionally also “succeed” by the standards of the dominant paradigm before it’s “acceptable” to turn around and ‘do good’/”give something back” which is often framed as passion for, but by the time the person has sold out, is/has/has been compromised enough to have “succeeded” - as one must do, at the expense of/on the backs and bodies of those who are not intended to benefit - there’s usually piss all (if you’ll pardon my vernacular) in the way of actual passion about it, which is where that thing called ‘liberal guilt’, being accused of or believed to be operating from that, even when you’re really not, can come into it as a patriarchally manufactured and managed faux way of being, which can be leveled at and suck the most genuine person back in(to the white mind-meld) at times). Expletive! I know what I mean to say, but is it there, somehow, in ten paragraphs condensed into one run-on sentence that calls for not only mega reading between the lines but superintuitiveness as well ?
Then, about this,
Acting out of those desires recently has brought me to arguing with, even haranguing, some people I really care about,
Perhaps you care about them enough to challenge them, as you likely expect and desire to be challenged in turn, about many things, especially when loved ones have a specific area of interest/concern/knowledge they are growing and wish to share/are genuinely passionate about? I know that I, personally, revel in the company/thoughts of folks who challenge me by broadening my perspectives, who deepen my understanding of issues I care about, even when it does give me pause to examine my own limitations in ways that can feel really uncomfortable.
I will ask too, are you actually haranguing, or are you simply perceived to be haranguing just because you’re speaking up and out at all? Which is not to say that friends et al mayn’t call “time” when they might need a break to absorb or are otherwise feeling overwhelmed by your passion.
And *cough* is The Backtrack never in play here,
over what amounts to nothing more than my misinterpreting what they were trying to say.
So, I’m obviously going to question your experience when you add this,
That makes me feel like shit, and deservedly so.
and ask if it is in fact *you* who should be ‘critically examining’ themselves?
I had more to say, and maybe will get to some of it later, particularly if you wouldn’t be averse to the idea of a Starfish and Amy have a public email-style conversation here (not to exclude others who also have something to say, of course, if anyone is able to make head or tail)?
Starfish
Popping off for a quick read around after posting this, I see Joan Kelly has more good words in Sobering Experiences. (And, apparently the word confounded is in the mass blog consciousness right now, too! :) )
I guess some of the point of my thoughts was: it’s easy to feel stymied, to feel terminally racist, to be overwhelmed by the kind of navel gazing that distractions along the lines of “if anti-racist words are spoken in a racist society, does anyone really hear them?” the likes of which are all part of the proliferation of what I’m going to call the selfish gene meme. Junky, deeply patriarchal science, at least as it’s been absorbed by mainstream (’cause I’m not familiar with the entirety of that work), if ever I heard it.
And that essay by Vivienne Louise, which I hadn’t read before I posted, is quite beautiful. I hope lots of women check it out.
Hey Starfish! Thanks for paying attention to me!!! :) I’ve missed your posting in recent weeks.
Sorry if my post was cryptic. I’m realizing from your responses/reactions that there’s a lot of backstory. I’m not going to go into too much detail, but the “haranguing” part was referring to email conversations I’ve had recently with two Black (African-American) separatists who I deeply love and respect (as much as you can love and respect someone you only know via email). I misinterpreted things that both of them were saying as being critical of me/my actions when they weren’t meant that way at all. In one case, my defensive reaction DID actually lead to some intended criticism of me, but by then I was so far into that defensive place that, well, I tried to make some truly stupid arguments until I was able to step back and see what a dumbass I was being. In the other case, the situation was resolved more easily and quickly, mostly because of the other’s graciousness, but I still felt bad about it. I wonder how much of what happened in both cases was my white expectation that I’m right, and that that ought to be recognized as a given when I’m interacting with people who aren’t white.
I took this post to my women’s antiracism group and read it aloud, thinking maybe we could discuss some of the themes — the white supremacy of white-only spaces, relationships that we have that cross various social class distinctions, how to create mixed spaces where white people don’t dominate, how to be in POC-dominated spaces without being a jerk. What the group chose to respond to was what they perceived as my “beating myself up” — which was not what I expected to hear AT ALL, and which I thought was an interesting take. I don’t know about you, but I find sometimes the internet is SUCH a harsh place, much more so than interpersonal interactions. So I think there was some of that going on–I’m so afraid of making a misstep online, of being criticized, that debasing myself seems safer. You know, I’ll talk about how much I suck before anyone else can — and given how many conflicts there are between radical feminists and others online, it’s not hard to imagine there are people just WAITING for the chance to pounce on any mistake or clueless statement that I might write.
What I find difficult is reconciling the very radical antiracist position–that white people don’t deserve strokes/cookies/whatever for being antiracist, that dealing with white people about racism is FOR white people, not POC, doesn’t help POC, etc.–with the tendency of white people to comfort each other about how difficult it is to behave in antiracist ways and confront racism in our daily lives. I don’t think the members of my group were trying to comfort me–I think they meant 1) that if one is motivated by self-hate and unable to acknowledge the value of one’s dedication/growth/learning/change as well as one’s mistakes and ignorance, one will burn out, and 2) that even having angst about it in the first place is a way to continue to center the white self.
So, I don’t know! There’s still so much I’m torn about, in terms of strategy. Should I be writing about whiteness/whiteliness/white racism, at all? If so, how do I do that WITHOUT falling into either the holier-than-thou white person role, or the guilty liberal? Should I eschew writing about whiteness in favor of writing about issues of importance to women of color — as in the post about Western Shoshone land rights I put up a while back? What I would really like is to figure out a way to write about stuff that concerns all women — because there’s plenty of it — without erasing the fact that those things affect women differently depending on other facts about us, but ALSO without slipping into the “intersectionality of oppressions” third-wave pomo language that I hate so much.
In other words, I guess, if radical feminism is to truly evolve from being a movement mainly concerned with how sexism affects white women to a movement that reflects and supports women’s solidarity across lines of race/class/age/sexuality/size/etc., what will it look like? The third wave, queer feminism, etc. all keep claiming that they’re the “evolution” of feminism but so far none of those claims rings true for me, because they’re not truly, unapologetically and uncompromisingly woman-centered. If radical feminism is going to evolve, that evolution is going to come from RADICAL FEMINISTS of all races (classes/ages/sexualities/sizes/etc.) working in parallel or collectively to make it happen.
Right?
Anyway, I think writing and posting that post has been some kind of watershed, because I’ve been blogging like mad over the past week, although because of my host migration issues, those posts aren’t readily up and available yet. But I’m definitely feeling like I busted through something that was holding me back–I think sometimes so much energy gets spent in saying “No, I’m not a racist! I’m not! I’m not loyal to white supremacy at all!” that to be able to say, “Well, yeah, you’re right, I guess I am,” frees up that energy to be used in more positive, forward-moving ways. And again, none of that really goes to ending oppression in any real way, but I know I wasn’t getting anywhere the other way.
Anyway, thanks for wanting to have a conversation and being willing to host, and I hope this clears up some confusion.
Ah, I see, and didn’t I have a completely white-centric response to what you’d written, never imagining you were not ‘haranguing’ white people/women! What the hell is wrong with you, (and me!)? /joke -which I hope you’re up for and is not too tasteless.
Then, I, unlike your anti-racism group - who maybe were privy to information I didn’t have - attempted to buoy you up a little… though either way, my incorrect interpretation or the fuller picture, you did and maybe do seem to be throwing your hands up a bit, which makes me feel kind of sad… though maybe, as you indicate toward the end of your comment you had to throw that stuckedness out.
While my own experiences and positioning are not yours I think I do hear you about third wave/intersectionality, in as much as when I am able to radically decentre myself, my life and what I think I know or believe myself to have learned about the lives of others who are not so like me, to actually see and feel more clearly the immensity, the enormous scope of what all needs changing (rather than concentrating on what would help me forge my own (however non-standard) path through), and am then, too, more able to more readily perceive, to more fully understand, the criticisms about the exclusivity and narrowness of what is known as white, middle-class feminism… It’s like there’s this tiny group of white women who’ve become the new dead white men, who need to come around, to stop aligning them/our/selves in ways that are perceived as upholding the dead or soon to be dead white men’s ways - white supremacist etc bigots. And, well, then what?
I have sometimes felt myself moving in and out of those slightly different realities, if that’s not too hokey a way to put it, when I’ve been thinking and sometimes writing more about race for instance (which seems to almost always include men in my head/minset, who, yes, are close on half the people on the planet, but which I could do quite nicely without thanks very much and that perhaps makes me come across as and sometimes feel that bigot-likeness…) and then switch, and it is like switching to another mindset, to focus on women-only, who, honestly, in my head/mindset, are not only white or whitened women. I think there’s something growing from becoming aware of that disconnect, a neuronic firing perhaps in place of what was a kind of moronic dead end in my brain. And yeah, that’s well out there, and maybe something unwise to share publicly; still, I figure if it proves remotely useful to anyone for me to have said it, well, so be it.
you said “If radical feminism is going to evolve, that evolution is going to come from RADICAL FEMINISTS of all races (classes/ages/sexualities/sizes/etc.) working in parallel or collectively to make it happen.”
to which I will say that I think what that’s going to take is a lot more humility (in the finest senses of that word) than white women who are rightly or semi or demi-rightly perceived to be more closely aligned with those dead white men types than anyone else, including the larger percentage of women on the planet. Perception not only matters but is often bang on right. Your idea to go (to some group project or other) and be *for*, rather than positioning yourself with (which can tend to turn into something resembling takeover), women of colour seems a right or good one.
I reckon that’s about all I have for now. You wrote a heap(not a criticism), which I’ll reread, and revisit your original post too, then maybe have more to say.
I am glad that you’ve experienced a burst of renewed energy though, and yes, yes, yes I caught up with some of your most recent blogging thanks to Littoral Mermaid’s tip off. When I can’t find you there, I’ll change the link(s) back again! Thanks for talking with me. I appreciate it ’cause you stretch me a bit, and feel safe too.
Oh, yes, the internet can be harsh. I tend to not allow my mind to wander too much to the snickerings, guffaws, gobsmacked disbeliefs, fed-ups and pissedoffednesses things I write might draw forth. I’ve figured there will likely always be at least(even by my own lights) a sentence fragment that is off, a qualifier or two I leave out, that anything I write will be read differently by different people/women coming to it from different perspectives, and even in the few months I’ve been writing not really so very much here I’ve tried to feel more relaxed about that, to draft and edit a little less compulsively than I did earlier on.
Despite that I’ve now lightly edited this comment twice, to expand one thought and slightly reword another!
[...] Starfish asked me some questions about my white-only post and I clarified a few things in her comments. [...]
then switch, and it is like switching to another mindset, to focus on women-only, who, honestly, in my head/mindset, are not only white or whitened women. I think there’s something growing from becoming aware of that disconnect, a neuronic firing perhaps in place of what was a kind of moronic dead end in my brain. And yeah, that’s well out there, and maybe something unwise to share publicly
This is awesome, I really missed that the first time through, but I think I know exactly what you mean. I had that epiphany when it was pointed out to me that white women’s lauding their sexual relationships with nonwhite men does NOTHING for the cause of nonwhite women against sexism. A lightbulb DEFINITELY went on there, and I started seeing the path out of liberal whiteness (or white liberal-ness) WRT race, there. A tiny path into being in real solidarity with women of color. I too have been slipping in and out of that place since that was made clear to me, but I’m hoping every time I revisit it my mental connection will be stronger.
Hey Amy. Am just acknowledging your comment for now. Will have more to say later or tomorrow. Have been reading a lot today about what seems like racism v. sexism (and sometimes is and sometimes isn’t that at all… brain is plum tuckered right now.
(And I’m wondering, as ever, if handy-dandy-cutesy phrases like ‘plum tuckered’ have some currently unknown to me meaning that if I were aware of it I wouldn’t use the term any longer, (like rule of thumb). And, yes, I do often go look up origins of phrases).
Well, the anecdote you mention as a lightbulb moment or epiphany in your last comment could hardly have been a more (recently) contentious one, could it?! I suspect the fallout from at least one public discussion at least partly about that is still with many of us, in different ways.
One comment I remember most distinctly from that was JW’s suggestion?/plea?/exhortation? for white women in or having experience of interracial relationships to simply Make Knowledge of those experiences rather than unsound, (as in unhelpful and likely hurtful to women of colour) ‘activism’ (or much white-woe ado about) from those experiences, especially if, as it later turned out, the idea for the activist element likely came from the words of a publishable white woman, and were adopted in self-serving ways (ie. how to have a purportedly ‘ethical’ if somewhat non-standard type of white het woman’s life).
Because I was startled by some of the things implied and threatened by some white women during and in the wake of that thread - startled, as in “OMD, am I in the presence of women with feminist consciousness, or not” (an outrageous thought to many, in context, I’m sure! and,yes, the ghosts of unsisterly sisterliness from my own life experiences rose before me to bring me to that startlement) so that I’ve lately been mulling over what it is about calls for seemingly amorphous sisterhood that bug me, and, going off to your Feminist Reprise archives in search of this, Janice Raymond’s Obstacles to Female Friendship (the parts about therapism and relationism particularly) and this, Joanna Russ’s Power and Helplessness in the Women’s Movement, which I thought might help me generate some cohesive, relevant comment on that topic(sisterhood), I came instead upon this recent addition to The Archives Empathy and Antiracist Feminist Coalitional Politics which got me thinking and writing in a hopefully more uplifting direction here.
From the article:
The coalitions we form must be based not on shared experience but on a shared politics. Further, we reject empathy as an adequate tool for building such coalitions. We insist, instead, on the need for a shared intellectual understanding of relations of domination and subordination, and a shared commitment to ending oppression in all of its myriad forms.
and how anger and outrage may fuel activity
White feminists often feel a sense of personal outrage because of the knowledge that they too are implicated in the system.
Yep. I’ll admit to this (as I learned more and more about Colonisation/Imperialism in my own neck of the woods and simultaneously thought on where I had been privileged by whiteness, that is, where racial discrimination was in play, in my favour - in employment opportunities and in finding places to live, for two fairly obvious eg’s).
The challenge, then, is to move, hopefully fairly quickly, beyond guilt (and possibly defensiveness) which may immobilise us (white women).
It is this kind of knowledge and this kind of outrage on the part of white women as well as women of colour that we believe is most productive. Furthermore, whether or not people in positions of power and privilege (white women, in this case) feel the anger of the oppressed, it is important that they understand the cause of the anger and trust that.
And I think we need to extend that trust to personal critiques of our (white women’s) lives and personal politics as well, and Make Knowledge, as has been suggested rather than becoming defensive (silencing) and reactionary(shunning) when we are, or feel, personally criticised.
—-
It occurs to me that some self disclosure might help position me more soundly, so, reluctant as I am, and wrongheaded as I believe it to be, to make any ado about my own white life when it comes to anti-racism, I do have personal experience of being in interracial relationships (as a much younger woman) and concurrent immersion in not white as communities, then reabsorption into white dominated community and, too, have some small experience of what it may mean to have a not entirely white heritage in ways more concrete than there’s-a-rumour-I-had-a-Maori-Greatgrandmother, and personal observation of racist-sexism directed at women of colour since before a time I had accurate words for that.
Still, I walk, and sometimes have waltzed, through this life so far looking exactly like a white woman, and acting ‘raised white’(as I was), so while I do have some personal experiences from which I have been able to make knowledge (especially once I had more political tools with which to do those experiences justice), I would not presume to assert what my life is about when seen from the perspective of a conscious woman of colour. I have taken on board, somewhere along the way, a woc critique of white women (especially those who would also position themselves as antiracist) in interracial relationships, something I now know to be often very hurtful personally and sometimes politically harmful to women of colour - certainly I know this, have learned this, as it applies from a radical woc position in my geographic location - and I’ve had the strong impression this critique applies globally (throughout the ‘Western’ world, at least).
—
Amy, upthread you asked, although you may have been thinking outloud and may also have answered your own question when you said the following (now interjected with some comments of my own):
Should I be writing about whiteness/whiteliness/white racism, at all? If so, how do I do that WITHOUT falling into either the holier-than-thou white person role, or the guilty liberal?
Probably no matter how you go about that, (and I do think doing that can be useful to other white women), there will be those who assign you either “holier-than-thou” or “guilty liberal” whether or not that’s where you’re coming from.
Should I eschew writing about whiteness in favor of writing about issues of importance to women of color — as in the post about Western Shoshone land rights I put up a while back?
No and yes, though sometimes straight up reporting of issues of importance to woc seems to need some white interpretation if it is to reach through the whiteliness of other white women effectively.
What I would really like is to figure out a way to write about stuff that concerns all women — because there’s plenty of it — without erasing the fact that those things affect women differently depending on other facts about us…
And there’s your answer, or part of your answer, I think. The opposite of erasing or whitewashing differences would be highlighting them, would it not? That is, it must be possible to figure out how to make all points of view clear - around “reproductive rights” for an easyish to grasp (and overridingly het-centric!) eg.
Decentralise what seems and often is the white dominant perspective, if you determine to forge ahead on this path.
I have taken on board, somewhere along the way, a woc critique of white women (especially those who would also position themselves as antiracist) in interracial relationships, something I now know to be often very hurtful personally and sometimes politically harmful to women of colour - certainly I know this, have learned this, as it applies from a radical woc position in my geographic location - and I’ve had the strong impression this critique applies globally (throughout the ‘Western’ world, at least).
Yes. For sure. This phenom, which JW termed “radical miscegenosexuality,” is also a very, as you say, het-centric or heterosexual-centering position–at least, I have not found any writings online by lesbians about interracial relationships. I don’t know what that means, though certainly there are many inferences one could draw. And I’m sure there is such writing, somewhere. I just unpacked a bunch of dusty old archive-able materials today (boxed since my most recent move) so perhaps I will begin looking for that purposely.
I don’t mean to open any cans of worms! I was trying to be very circumspect, but I forget we’re basically part of a rather small, if fluid, group. I go back and forth in my understanding of and agreement with the premises of Caygill/Sundar article, because I think empathy has been important in my political development. Doesn’t much of oppression require, among many other things, a failure of empathy? Throughout the ugliness you speak of, things have never seemed as clear to me as they have to others–which I have no doubt is because of my still seeing things from a white supremacist perspective–though I have definitely chosen who I will support and who I won’t.
Some things have changed since I wrote the post that sparked yours here, which I am not going to discuss publically for various reasons–but which have thrown me back into my not-knowing, Not Making Knowledge place of significant confusion. So I really appreciate your willingness to have an ongoing discussion.
This phenom, which JW termed “radical miscegenosexuality,”…
Yes, I’d forgotten that!
… is also a very, as you say, het-centric or heterosexual-centering position–at least, I have not found any writings online by lesbians about interracial relationships. I don’t know what that means, though certainly there are many inferences one could draw.
I’m thinking that the ideas about interracial lesbian relationships are there in some of the writings by black lesbian women that are already in the archives, aritcles and essays that maybe appear to be mainly about other things? Subtext and whatnot. Or rather, that there isn’t so much division between relationships and Relationships, if you get my drift. Perhaps I’m wrong though. Or you feel the need of specificity?
And I’m sure there is such writing, somewhere. I just unpacked a bunch of dusty old archive-able materials today…
Cool! For you to have new old material to go through I mean… not “cool” as in necessarily expecting the public sharing of anything you find.
I don’t mean to open any cans of worms! I was trying to be very circumspect,..
Well, the can is still there, I think… seeing as I catch the wiggle of a worm in my peripheral from time to time, so although I admit to wavering (before, during and after that comment), I did choose to go there, for better or for worse, for my own reasons ultimately. I apologise if I’ve dragged you back into someplace you’d rather not have been present in right now, or ever again for that matter.
I go back and forth in my understanding of and agreement with the premises of Caygill/Sundar article, because I think empathy has been important in my political development.
I do agree about empathy, personally. I felt, perhaps, the authors were attempting to put more motivators and takes on motivation out there, suggesting paths/means that may not have been considered, that sort of thing?
Some things have changed since I wrote the post that sparked yours here, which I am not going to discuss publically for various reasons…
Fair enough.
So I really appreciate your willingness to have an ongoing discussion.
No worries. (Just to seal the perfunctory kind of white “kiwi” ’spoken’ reserve in place : ) ).
Here’s something I found by quick random googling, haven’t read it yet:
http://condor.depaul.edu/~mwilson/multicult/dslesb.htm
I actually have the book this comes from, haven’t read that yet either.
Thanks for that link, Amy. In the light of which, I will apologise for the forgetfulness, the ignorance in my suggestion that relationship might not be so different from Relationship.
I’m looking forward to reading your post on lesbianism, celibacy, couple privilege etc (when it’s ready), wondering about the layers of that, that are not front and centre obvious to me.
In the light of which, I will apologise for the forgetfulness, the ignorance in my suggestion that relationship might not be so different from Relationship.
Not sure what you mean by this? It seemed straightforward to me, in terms of the relationships I have with friends, as a lesbian–frequently they aren’t much less intense than lover relationships. We just (usually) aren’t having all the sex. :) So that’s what I thought you meant, and I agreed with you!
Vivienne Louise did have some things to say, obliquely, about resentment from white lesbians when Black lesbians want to spend time with Black friends or in all-Black groups. I was glad you pointed that out.
Being celibate/not coupled, I probably don’t have anything to say that you haven’t already thought of on the subject. I’m just–not feeling like sharing too much of myself with the internets right now! It’s stormy out there.
I meant that I wasn’t thinking too much about the complicating aspects the rest of the world (outside what can be a more insular or even vacuum-like space that is just the pair(usually)), such as families, and public attitudes to pda’s - the aspects where other people may be thinking about all the sex (homophobically, whether of the basic hatred or sometimes liberal-style residual type) layered with all the sex interracially, if that makes more sense.
So, let’s all be just lesbians together all the time wont necessarily work any better than let’s just all be women all together all the time, for smaller groups within groups who share any other common identity/identifier.
Yeah, it is a bit stormy out there. I seldom regret my choice to stay off the radar, out of search engines. The only time I ever get more than a handful of visits in a day is when you’ve linked me (which I don’t mind, imaging that traffic that comes my way from your site is most likely friendly in nature).
i visit fairly regularly :D
just nodding at you both, dont mind me, ive not got anything of substance to add here, just letting you know im listening and trying to keep up.
Hey, v, always good to see you about : ) Thanks for letting me know you come by. I visit you regularly too. I’d meant to chat back to you at secondwaver’s about how I also sometimes have incomplete drafts sitting around - just deleted 3 the other day - and still have ideas on a couple of things that are failing to take on a direction, to form clearly in my mind, as yet. “As yet” sounds optimistic, right? : )
v, happy to see you!
So, let’s all be just lesbians together all the time wont necessarily work any better than let’s just all be women all together all the time, for smaller groups within groups who share any other common identity/identifier.
O yes, I JUST TODAY found a piece about this which I will put up this week. Are you peering over my shoulder? :)
No, not peering, lol! Just stating the obvious, again, I’d thought.
Not to say that women can’t or shouldn’t come together around common issues (male violence in all it’s forms, for instance), it’s just that many, if not most of us are still working out how even these commonest of issues (beauty standards, for another simple, and often not even that high a priority to many women around the world, instance) effect different groups differently, so that one group’s strategy and solutions will fly in the face of what another group most needs… and then there’s the inevitable falling apart of amorphous womanhood, so that, from Amy upthread:
“If radical feminism is going to evolve, that evolution is going to come from RADICAL FEMINISTS of all races (classes/ages/sexualities/sizes/etc.) working in parallel or collectively to make it happen.”
I’m thinking …in parallel AND collectively… with deep awareness of and attention to where each group is at and what each group who is effected differently really most needs. It seems to me there really can’t be an all together around even many of those commonest issues when what looks like resolution to one group likely brings on a whole other set of problems for some or another group(s).
I definitely think, too, that there are times when one individual woman’s, or one small group’s solution can be a real inspiration to other individual or smaller groups of women, so I’m always on the lookout for those ideas, wondering sometimes if those sorts of seemingly small, sometimes individual and oft dubbed meaningless solutions might not be just as likely to bring about a sea change, ultimately, as big tent feminism(which can feel and be stultifying).
I’m thinking …in parallel AND collectively… with deep awareness of and attention to where each group is at and what each group who is effected differently really most needs.
Well, yes. I’ve been saying “or” because of trying to be aware that feminists of color, for example, may not WANT to work with white feminists, and don’t need to, don’t need us for anything especially if we’re just making their row harder to hoe. So saying “or” reminds me that we can hopefully be working in the same direction even if we’re not working *together* per se.
It seems to me there really can’t be an all together around even many of those commonest issues when what looks like resolution to one group likely brings on a whole other set of problems for some or another group(s).
Do you think so? Or is it just necessary to go for that radical solution? To take the beauty standard for example–it’s analogous to a lot of things, because the strategy by many nonradical groups–much of the fat acceptance movement, for example–has been to EXPAND the notion of what’s beautiful. Hence fat fetish magazines, fat lingerie stores, etc. The end result of which is simply to make more women available for male sexual exploitation. Because anytime there’s a binary like that–pretty-ugly, or fuckable-nonfuckable, if you will–*someone* has to be nonfuckable, for “fuckable” to make any sense. You know? So to me the solution seems to be to give up on beauty standards altogether and recognize the truth, which is that, for people who are paying attention, attraction, love, sexual desire don’t really have anything to do with an objective standard of beauty and have a great deal to do with lots of other unrelated things. If we kept that focus, we wouldn’t have, for example, white women complaining about how “fat women can be sexy too!” while wearing corsets and wielding horsewhips, meanwhile black women (or disabled women, or older women) knowing that they’re STILL shut out of a standard of idealized womanhood that’s stretched just a tiny bit to accommodate a few extra pounds on a young, white-skinned, narrow-nosed, long-smooth-haired blue-eyed hippy busty blonde.
My comment was a muddle. Thanks for asking questions that will, I hope, help me articulate some things more specifically.
I respect that OR as used, and have no expectations of woc with AND. I think I do have expectations for white feminist women to really get alongside and to begin to always include in their thinking and to articulate when speaking or writing, woc critiques of everything whitened, which is EVERYthing, all the institutions and standards(that uphold racism particularly); specifically the Prison Industrial Complex, for example.
While many white radical feminists do make the same or similar critiques of all the institutions and standards that woc do, there seems to have been a greater willingness among white feminists of all kinds, including radical, to make use of the criminal (IN)justice system (around male violence, specifically, I’m thinking right this minute), for all sorts of reforms that are first about gaining some breathing space for women(and sometimes achieve this, most often in more real ways for white women), but seldom gets any further toward radical change because the whitened institution that is PIC, that serves white supremacy, is not eroded that way, will not tolerate erosion, makes only small concessions that most often do not serve poc/woc, that does serve the maintenance of white people’s supremacy, (sometimes including white women in smaller ways) rather than go to something really radical like Critical Resistance, which Joan Kelly has recently written some about there, (from her white woman’s pov).
That is where I was thinking to when I wrote “It seems to me there really can’t be an all together around even many of those commonest issues when what looks like resolution to one group likely brings on a whole other set of problems for some or another group(s).”
I do appreciate, hear and understand everything you wrote about sizesim, beauty standards. Personally, I’ve become invisible in the fuckable woman stakes, due mostly to ageing. I have had and still have thin privilege, have had enough pretty privilege that becoming invisible has been some sort of freedom from, for me. I do acknowledge the benefits I’ve received: jobs I might’ve gotten because I looked ‘presentable’ enough in approved ways along with being able to do the work; I’ve taken for granted being able to always find and choose from a range of clothing that would fit me, for different occasions; the general ease with which I’ve been able to move through the white, patriarchal world in ways women who do not closely resemble “the standard” have not.
Still, this invisibility that is newer to me is in no way the freedom from that I would wish for all women (myself included), which is for no woman ever to be judged, approved or disapproved of, harassed and/or hated on for any aspect of their physicality.
I do believe it’s something of an irritant, to say the least, sometimes to Western woc and to women outside whitened firstworld nations that beauty standards are even considered noteworthy when there are things going on in the world, even in the racist white supremacist firstworld that are sometimes literally life or death for women, or are far from what seems the frivolity, the luxury, the privilege of time to talk about beauty standards.
In saying that, Amy, I hope, think you’ll know I’m not about criticizing you personally, (I’m sure you already know about these things), or any other woman who might read these words. I’m just straight up making that point to illustrate what can sometimes be another “white feminist” irrelevancy to women who are not white, who may not be generally privileged in certain ways, or for whom ‘Western’ standards have little to no meaning in or bearing on their everyday lived reality.
It’s occurred to me that I’m all over the place perspective wise; that I’m not making clear distinctions (where they’re there to be made) between radical, liberal, radical woc, separatist etc, so that I may be confusing issues by trying to makes points all over the spectrum of views, and losing something in doing that rather than covering more ground in what I imagine might be a bridge and connection building way (because I have some hope just now, in many ways, for the latter).
I thinks that’s probably why I’m not able to get clear on what to write, how to write (direction/perspective-wise) anything here (not just in this thread) right now.
Um, thanks for listening to that, dear readers.
there seems to have been a greater willingness among white feminists of all kinds, including radical, to make use of the criminal (IN)justice system (around male violence, specifically, I’m thinking right this minute)
I have been thinking about this for a while, and have a post brewing–my thinking started with a post at The Burning Times some time ago about those bogus lists of instructions of how to stay safe and not get raped. And kind of went on in my thinking from there. What you say above is totally true, AND I think it represents a co-optation, at least in the US, of early feminist movement strategies against violence against women, which DIDN’T rely on the system, which recognized the system as male-dominated and hence part of the problem. So I’m going to write something about that. Still waiting for a particular book to come in the mail though.
I do believe it’s something of an irritant, to say the least, sometimes to Western woc and to women outside whitened firstworld nations that beauty standards are even considered noteworthy when there are things going on in the world, even in the racist white supremacist firstworld that are sometimes literally life or death for women, or are far from what seems the frivolity, the luxury, the privilege of time to talk about beauty standards.
I really hear you on this, and I think there are certainly instances where this is the case; and ALSO it’s something I hear a lot of WOC talking about, at least here in the US–that it’s not just a frivolous “beauty” thing, sometimes it’s really about being shut out of womanhood, i.e., not being considered human. You know, not just “boo hoo, no one thinks I’m pretty” but part and parcel of the experiences of some women JUST NOT MATTERING, because they’re not considered human. If that makes any sense. Think of the so-called “missing white woman syndrome.” What gets missed a lot is that she’s not only white, she’s also thin and young and blonde and presumed to be heterosexual. The violence done to her matters, because she’s “fuckable,” and therefore socially valuable (as a vessel for white men to recreate themselves if she isn’t sullied by “other” men), as opposed to all those dark or old or fat or lesbian or disabled women who’ve been violated and disappeared, who don’t merit a full-on media barrage or even any attention at all, because damage to them/us doesn’t matter.
And so I think part of the reason why so many methods of appearing more “white” exist–skin lightening creams, eye surgery, rhinoplasty, hair relaxers–is not just to look “pretty” like white women, but to survive, to get the better job, to get taken more seriously, at least maybe in urbanized and/or westernized environments. It’s kind of like some people think talking about lipstick or femininity is stupid and pointless, when really those are survival skills for a lot of women, and that’s just not fair to any of us.
I thinks that’s probably why I’m not able to get clear on what to write, how to write (direction/perspective-wise) anything here (not just in this thread) right now.
Well, I don’t know, I think this is maybe one of the better threads I’ve witnessed! I think goodwill and generous reading goes a long way towards not having to dot every i and cross every t, you know? We definitely have that going on here. :)
Nod, nod, nodding along with everything you’ve said, (even affirmation for this thread : ) for which I thank you, ’cause I’d felt like I might be coming a bit unstuck).
I get the impression there are strengthening grassroots, WOC lead actions and movements growing in the US? Possibly that’s something that’s always been there, but not noticed (or more likely dismissed by whoever are amorphous “white” and co-opted, as you say, feminist instigated services for women, at the behest of the masters who now have control of the bulk of the funding, who control how an organisation qualifies for funding, and then oversees the disbursement of funds)?
I’ve seen something on UK blogs about the disappearance of refuges and govt funding for these and other services for women, and saw something somewhere just recently about how Howards govt in Australia has wreaked havoc, broken down services that had been in place for women.
Here, I believe there is only one independent refuge in the country. The one in my town was security compromised and forced to close a couple of years back, so that women, if they chose to leave town (a much bigger, often more fraught step to take, particularly with children) were being driven north and south of here.
If that surge in grassroots activism, movement, is a true thing I think I’m seeing )and here a little too), I’d like to think, I hope that white people who care, white feminists particularly who are willing and able to be active in any of the different ways it’s possible to be (even just blogging) might start to take more of, even all their cues from communities of colour, from WOC.
…Last year in my town there was a rare, small and woman organised demo in support of what were dubbed “the terror raids”, a national govt approved action aimed primarily at one predominantly Maori community upcountry from where I am, with a lesser number of activists for many and various causes and other almost random seeming people/homes targeted too. The other women present at this demo I went to were simply that; present. Some white men who’d come along, came with placards and whatnot for their own, not clearly or directly related pet causes. I heard tell, too, of politically active white men taking control of other organising around this in other parts of the country, so… I don’t know. There was a coming together nationally, of sorts, but I got the strong impression that lots of, though not all, white folks were buzzing white-centrically about, as ever.
So true about Missing White Woman Syndrome. There was the furore in the UK and throughout the world last year about one wee white girl gone missing, and the recent news about the woman held hostage, raped for years, and bearing children, by her father! in Austria - I don’t know if this has been in the US news at all. marytracy at Beyond Feminism has a post, Something Stinks in Austria, about that.
Where’s the mainstream outcry for all the thousands and thousands women and children of all cultures, classes, colours and nations (not just ‘firstworld’ ones) that go missing, are trafficked, assaulted, raped, incested, abused everyday.
More nod, nod, nodding about survival skills and other ‘beauty’ industry driven travesties.
You know, sometimes I don’t think I really get, have a real sense of, just how many times more intense everything often seems or is in the US. At least that’s the impression I get, that numbers of things that are common between westernised firstworld predominantly white nations, are amplified in intensity and thus seem distorted beyond what I can readily comprehend situated where I am… I might see if I can track down some ex-pat blogs to check that out, or if you know, have anything to say about cross-white-western-cultural differences Amy, I’d be glad to hear it.
Let me see if I can flounder my way out of the patriarchal muck that is words like the following ones I had written above:
“feminist instigated services for women”
eww!yuck!
and ‘refuges’ were once upon a time, community based safe houses established and tended by networks, by collectives of feminist women, were they not?
thinking out loud some more about “survival skills”, I’m wishing for other words or phrasing for some of us to use, those of us who may, perhaps, worse-case-scenario, face homelessness and all the dangers, even sometimes unto death, that brings if we wont (or can’t) adhere to dresscodes, written or not, in workplaces for example…
I still feel like survival skills as used in a relatively safe Westernernised context is somewhat indulgent and bears little if any relation to the sorts of issues around more literal survival in places that are war torn and/or overwhelmed by extreme poverty. I don’t mean to guilt any woman around this, we don’t make these arbitrary, often impossibly hurtful, oftentimes harmful standards, I just mean to try to find a way to make those of us with some relative (to use a word that can make me see red in some instances) privilege less distant from women whose realities are very, very far from our own.
i also appreciate you all, amy and starfish, and v. well, that’s an understatement. trying to catch up a bit. will have to print out this thread to take home to read, since it’s no good trying deep thinking while at work. :)
Thanks for saying, secondwaver - say I (knowing you know it’s all mutual and everything) with the ulterior motive of finding out what, if anything, wordpress is gonna do to my avatar at this point in time.